The Gaming Den

I've always like the Jack of all Trades idea for a Bard, someone with some arcane power, can talk to people and stab them in the face when he needs to. But I'd be fine with anything that works.

To me a Beguiler rocks the shit out of the Bard because the Beguiler does something directly in combat, and that something is often meaningful. Their power also scales in level. They can also trap find, which is something demanded of skill monkeys and they have enough skills to play party face if they want to. If you add in splats then a Beguiler can function at nearly the level of a Wizard. So all in all it's a well designed class.

The APG could have easily made Bards a good PC class, it's a fine NPC class because it doesn't do anything. Give the players meaningful options for melee or casting or whatever. The APG is 330 pages long give or take and I have found no meaningful options, if your shitting out this much content that's not an accident, that's deliberate. A splat this size at WotC would invariably unleash a torrent of poorly tested game breaking shit, the fact that anything interesting is lacking in the APG is a testament to Pathfinder's commitment to mediocrity.

Beguiler is arguably better than a wizard for the first ten levels or so. Namely, because you get the same combat enders that any wizard that isn't cheating with ray of stupidity or whatever the fuck is casting. Having as much power as 90% of DMs will allow *and* a superior casting mechanic is pretty fucking powerful. Oh, you're also a rogue on the side in addition.

TOZ wrote:

True Sacrifice wrote: At 20th level, in a final self less act, a
monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which
then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All
dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life,
as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a
caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does
this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in
this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a
wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore,
the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down
again. All written mentions of his name become nothing
more than a blank space. This ability replaces perfect self.

Yes, the monk, having attained 20th level through DM pity, realizes how much he sucks and can finally perform a valuable act for the party. Committing suicide to rez the real party members and never coming back.

So... Much... Win...

Does this mean the Paizils finally got a clue?

*scries on Paizils, sees monkeys throwing typewriters around, dismisses spell*

Nah.

I liked the 1e bard. Combination spy, diplomat, lorekeeper and warrior. The whole singing and performance aspect has been over-emphasised since that edition I think. The idea of a cheerleader shouting "Go Team"in a life and death conflict is sycophantic and fappy, for want of better terms. Oratory can be compelling, especially a motivational speech before a conflict, but during a conflict is kind of stupid in most instances.

Danchild wrote:Oratory can be compelling, especially a motivational speech before a conflict, but during a conflict is kind of stupid in most instances.

With one exception

Ugh, I didn't notice this until very recently, but apparently Pathfinder's force cage has been shortened to a duration of 1 round/level and allows a Reflex save. Also...

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat

TOZ wrote:

True Sacrifice wrote: At 20th level, in a final self less act, a
monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which
then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All
dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life,
as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a
caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does
this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in
this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a
wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore,
the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down
again. All written mentions of his name become nothing
more than a blank space. This ability replaces perfect self.

Yes, the monk, having attained 20th level through DM pity, realizes how much he sucks and can finally perform a valuable act for the party. Committing suicide to rez the real party members and never coming back.

"Nice trick, I bet you can't do it again!"

Also, you notice how the aftereffects make it as if the monk had never existed?

Yeah, if only they could do that to the entire monk class.

That is the most ridiculous ability ever. I like how the most powerful part of it is the part that modifies existing written documents, not the resurrection part. It should have been reworded:

"At 20th level, in case you haven't figured it out by now, the monk loses D&D."

virgil wrote:Ugh, I didn't notice this until very recently, but apparently Pathfinder's force cage has been shortened to a duration of 1 round/level and allows a Reflex save.

Reflex save? Dude. That's a step forward!

I always hated Force Cage because it was a certain shitty DM's favorite trick to bone players. All the abilities which negate it are in the province of Wizards. It's specifically immune to Greater Dispelling, too, so you couldn't get a Dispelling Sword or something.

I'm more disgusted at the change from 2 hours/level to 1 round/level. It still costs 500gp (down from 1.5k) to cast it too. I can do better half the time with a wall of stone (need dungeon terrain).

Name your Monk the same thing as the main enemy boss of the campaign.

Then you can kill yourself and claim that you have erased him from history.

You sort of manage to win something as a Monk.

Kaelik wrote:Name your Monk the same thing as the main enemy boss of the campaign.

Then you can kill yourself and claim that you have erased him from history.

You sort of manage to win something as a Monk.

I was thinking the same thing, but came to the philosophical conclusion that you won't erase references to people whose names are the same words as your's. You'd end up with a situation where references to 'John Smith', 'John', 'Smith', and even 'Johhny' were erased, but only those that referred to the monk.

In fact, you could even say something like 'There was this monk and she saved our lives by sacrificing her own. She had the same first name as our friend Tammy and the same last name as the king of South Umbria. Let's always try to remember her, because history can't'.

I've got to agree with Toz, though.

True Sacrifice Errata wrote: At 20th level, in a final self less act, a
monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which
then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All
dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life,
as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a
caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does
this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in
this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a
wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore,
the monk class can never be spoken or written down
again. All written mentions of his class become nothing
more than a blank space. If you don't have white-out,
scribbling over the monk class entry and every mention of
the class with a black permanent marker is acceptable. This
ability replaces perfect self.

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat

So... they learned absolutely nothing from the Cheater of Mystra. Good to know.

I guess it goes hand in hand with not learning anything about anything from anything.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:So... they learned absolutely nothing from the Cheater of Mystra. Good to know.

Since this is our best explanation of it, no.

-Crissa

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat

Okay, what the hell is a "selective spell with an area effect" in the first place?

Are they talking about a multi-targetted spell like horrid wilting or what?

And if it's selective, why would you want to exclude targets? Can't you already do that with a selective spell?

RandomCasualty2 wrote:

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat

Okay, what the hell is a "selective spell with an area effect" in the first place?

Are they talking about a multi-targetted spell like horrid wilting or what?

And if it's selective, why would you want to exclude targets? Can't you already do that with a selective spell?

I was going to flame the Paizils for giving every gish ever a permanent AMF that does not affect themselves. Then I realized writing an ability that does absolutely nothing at all is more up their alley.

And lol at making Forcecage pointless. Watch the Paizils line up and claim Wizards got nerfed, when we all know it just means they'll use another 8th level spell. And really, Forcecage only works on gimps. Otherwise your level 15+ character has a cheap teleportation item and cares fuck all about Forcecage. Yeah, it's often cited as a fuck you to beatsticks, but fuck them, as the BSF stopped being relevant 10 levels ago, so the fact you auto win against them, while nice is also quite irrelevant.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Okay, what the hell is a "selective spell with an area effect" in the first place?

I think they forgot to capitalize selective. Near as I can tell it is the archmage prestige class feature Shape Spell turned into a metamagic feat. You know, so you don't hit your meatshields with that fireball you are throwing.

Maxus wrote: Reflex save? Dude. That's a step forward!

I always hated Force Cage because it was a certain shitty DM's favorite trick to bone players. All the abilities which negate it are in the province of Wizards. It's specifically immune to Greater Dispelling, too, so you couldn't get a Dispelling Sword or something.

It's still total ass though with a reflex save. I mean this is a 7th level spell, and the best it does is fail a save to trap someone, that can be fixed by just dimension dooring out. As opposed to finger of death which will outright kill.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat

Okay, what the hell is a "selective spell with an area effect" in the first place?

A selective spell is a spell modified by the selective spell metamagic feat.

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this feat

So what happens when you make an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere or a Wall of Iron selective?

RandomCasualty2 wrote:It's still total ass though with a reflex save. I mean this is a 7th level spell, and the best it does is fail a save to trap someone, that can be fixed by just dimension dooring out. As opposed to finger of death which will outright kill.

Finger of Death does casterlevelx2d6 damage in PF.

If they fail the save.

Having fun banging your head against the wall over there AMiB? Mostly it seems the arguments back at you are 'no it doesn't!'

TOZ wrote:Having fun banging your head against the wall over there AMiB? Mostly it seems the arguments back at you are 'no it doesn't!'

A Man In Black wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:Individual spells are pretty clear at stating whether they're Area, Effect, or Target.

So a spell that affects an area is an area effect spell, but a spell with an effect that covers a certain area isn't.

Threads like that one make me miss reaction images.

A Man In Black wrote: So what happens when you make an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere or a Wall of Iron selective?

Nothing particularly bad, compared with AMF that doesn't affect you or your allies. Geez, I thought it was well-known that the similar ability of the archmage allows for all sorts of abuse.

FatR wrote:Nothing particularly bad, compared with AMF that doesn't affect you or your allies. Geez, I thought it was well-known that the similar ability of the archmage allows for all sorts of abuse.

That's why that ability was errataed, years ago. In fact, I think SKR was still with WOTC at the time.